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Villa game - Pathetic

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Post by tim_rigby Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:06 am

What a waste of space. Our defense is a joke, 3 clean sheets in 37 games. Robinson was bought to organise the defense and we were actually worse for his assistance, Knight is terrible and Ricketts appalling. Megson clearly has no idea how to organise a defense. In fairness the rest of our play has got better, largely due to the introduction of additional pace and flair in midfield to add to our existing robust qualities up front, but the defense is letting us down time and again. The biggest problem is Megson will go back to the old dross like McCann and then we will lose every game 2-0. Can anyone really see Megson fixing this?

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Post by BUNBURY Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:12 am

A few weeks ago I was starting to feel more optimistic, as our midfield had improved with the introduction of some pace and flair.

It now looks like we are going to be stuck in a bottom six battle to the end of the season !!
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Post by tim_rigby Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:23 am

I think Megson has taken us as far as he can, he has no grasp of tactics whatsoever, it is schoolboy stuff.

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Post by denn Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:59 am

They should have been made to push their team bus home. Andy O`brien was called to pot when he made mistakes.

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Post by tim_rigby Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:02 am

Sure but we don't want him back in the side, AOB is as bad if not worse than Knight. This connelly lad we got from Wolves any good?
I have to say I think it is more than the personnel, good managers don't have defenses that let in so many goals so consistently, 3 clean sheets in 37 games is the managers responsibility and Megson does not seem able to do anything about it, either he needs to get a defense coach in who can or he has to go.

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Post by josh8 Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:14 am

Andy O'Brien is prone to individual mistakes which have often been punished.... but what he did better than most in this defence was read the game and mop up quite alot of the other defenders mistakes...... especially Gary Cahill..... who because of AOB absence has looked very average this term.....! I also thin that cahill has been believing too much in his own press and has been caught out (showboating) in the last cpl of games....!
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Post by wakeywhite Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:57 pm

I agree with Tim.
3 clean sheets in 37 games is unacceptable.
I blame Megson's cavalier, gung-ho, all out attack approach to the game.
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Post by breezeblock Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:46 pm

Cahill and Knight were just terrible...really, really terrible. They weren't bullied as some reports said, they just bottled it. Carew had a good game but nothing outstanding, he just saw the fraility of these two and played on it.

We did Ok going forward although Taylor was very sluggish and he didn't hold the ball up once.

But no mention of Megson in the away end...I think fans realised we had been let down by two players today, not by the manager.
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Post by josh8 Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:57 pm

tell that to tim....!
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Post by Haydock Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:10 pm

It's easy to blame the defence with a scoreline like that but I feel that we have to broaden the scope. In particular Davies had a shocker - yes I know he still wins headers - but his habit of tracking directly back instead o laying off to players in better positions is costing us dear in terms of possession and forward movement.

Lee shouldn't start - Mark Davies should. I'd like to see a radical change of Elmander and Klasnic up front. Give big Kev a rest and let's see how the new 'style' can work.

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Post by mangler Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:51 pm

We often seem to lose heavily at Villa... same as with Chelsea.

Megson has said that if the players can't improve then he'll have to change the players. After several games of watching Knight give away goal after goal I'm hoping he's finally gonna be out, with AOB coming in as an adequate (if on form) replacement. Also he took Ricketts off for Steinsson... I wonder if Ricketts' defensive weakness has now caught up with him and that Megson feels it outweighs his attacking attributes?
A back four against Rovers of Steinsson | Cahill | AOB | Samuel seems more imposing than the one sent out today.

Glad Elmander bagged a goal, although it did say he could hardly miss, and then described his ball control in a 2nd half opportunity as 'diabolical'!! (will have to grit my teeth and sit through the highlights... no doubt we'll be one of the first on MOTD this week!!).
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Post by Admin Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:47 pm

saw the full 90 mins, and we have problems...

and its more than just the defence.

what did kev davies do apart from win about 3 flick ons? how many times was he caught in possession, how many times did he miscontol it / give it away / make a bad pass or just simly not have a clue what to do with the ball. i am getting utterly sick of seeing it and it bening got away with, this is the premiership!

davies is by no means on his own though, taylor is slow, pretty much useless on the ball with passing, vision, creativity of any sort, and he doesnt exactly cover very well in the wide position. the only thing he can do is kick it into the box from a free kick, i think you need to be able to do more to get in the starting 11.

i know that the defenders make their share of mistakes but a large proportion of the pressure comes from our midfiled not having a clue how to move the ball around or how to create anything at all, i cant get accross how clueless we actually look. if we could exert more control on a game and maintain more possession then the defence would only have half as much to do. we have to relieve some of it.

ricketts at the back i think needs to be swapped out and see how steinsson slots back in, i think he did pretty well for us (not today). keep samuel on the left (i really hope megson doesnt go back to robinson) but have gardner on the left wing, he provides really decent cover and is 10 time more mobile than taylor for getting forward and getting at defenders. And the whole thing works better with samuel and gardner together, its much more of a partnership.

this would mean mark davies could start in the centre, probably alongside muamba, a good combination of muambas defencive strength and mark davies composure and vision. i too think lee would be better used as an impact sub so i would be torn on who to put in his place, choose from ricketts, choen, riga maybe.

i know that for us riga has done nothing so far but for me has still never really had the chances, he has a really decent reputation and so does klasnic, i think at least one of them should be starting.

against villa muamba was caught a few times in possession, he really needs to get that out of his game, cahill and knight need to sort their acts out, and maybe yes, chuck this young wolves lad into a game, if he is clearly not coping then sub him, no real harm can come of it?

Over all there are two or three major things which need sorting out.
The defence needs to get more disciplined and work better as a unit. Also cut out the individual mistakes (comes under discipline).

Our midfield and forward line need sorting out, first of all a few changes in our "regular staring eleven" because we really are poor, and secondly, we really really need to start knowing what to do with the ball, our main problem for me is how poor we are at using the ball. we end up down so many blind alleys, we end up running it out for throw ins, overhitting passes, not knowing where to pass it, just hoofing it or just going backwards. it is shocking.

and thirdly, megson needs to see these things and start addressing them, the height of his ambition today was to revert back to a 5 man midfield to play a team who we needed to get goals against, and a team who have just lost to west ham. my fear is that he cannot see what needs doing, and he is the one who needs to go. yes, i still think so, i am not suddenly blinded by one or two ok games.

today we are losing and need something doing to create something, he subs a right back for a forward, oh err i mean a right back for a right bak, yes thats what i meant. same old tricks.

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Post by breezeblock Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:17 pm

Do any of you go to away matches anymore?
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Post by josh8 Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:28 pm

some of us do......! I actually thought we looked good going forward today....and even 3-1 down always looked capable of getting a cpl of goals.... I just thing that individual mistakes are undermining everything else thats going on.... and I think we need an older head next to cahil and for all his mistakes... Andy O'Brien is the best partner currently at the club....
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Post by holty2 Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:51 am

I have to agree with playing gardner back on the left, he is a threat going forward and can cover tracking back.He was wasted playing in the middle against villa,the game was passing him by. Everything about our game yesterday was shambolic .I think we still need taylor to start because he is the only person who can take a free kick or corner,Lees corners when taylor was out were dreadful.
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Post by Admin Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:57 am

you cant start taylor just cos he can take a free kick. its just so wrong, elmander is a decent kick taker, mark davies is too. lee has the ability, maybe had a couple of bad ones but taylor fluffs his fair share anyway. i dont see whats so hard about taking a free kick anyway, you can soon coach someone else to do that part of the game, you cant coach matt taylor so much that he will be improved enough!
josh, good going forward, i really have to disagree, we did threaten a couple of times but our general shape when in possession and our general use of the ball for more or less the whole game was utter rubbish. we did not look like we had a clue how to use it!!!

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Post by tim_rigby Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:24 am

Breeze, I go when I can and of course I always go to the Emirates, you know how I like it there.
Josh and Breeze if a side with a decent defense has a surprisingly bad game and ships three or four goals you can blame individual mistakes but when a team that has had 3 clean sheets in 37 games, it is the managers fault. We have let in 13 goals in three games, every player in the back four against Villa was bought by Megson and they were playing in front of one of the best goalkeepers in the land. Megson has not got a clue how to organise the defense that is simply unarguable.

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Post by breezeblock Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:30 am

So we count games from last season with this season's stats now do we? Ou defence has two/three new players in it and it isn't working. It isn't working because those players and Cahill are simply not putting in the effort....Cahill and Knight should both apologise for yesterday, not Megson.
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Post by tim_rigby Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:36 am

So who is apologising for the ten goals conceded in the three games prior to the villa one. In your opinion does Megson ever take responsibility for our performances or is it always going to be the fault of players he has bought and never him. I am really beginning to wonder if he has you on some sort of retainer.

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Post by breezeblock Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:02 pm

Re-read what I just typed, Tim. Our defenders aren't doing what they should be doing. I don't think Megson should apologise for Cahill and Knight yesteday because those two caused the defeat...
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Post by josh8 Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:33 pm

I would imagine in training these players don't make these mistakes... I'm almost sure Megson doesn't send these players out on match days and say's "come on lads... lets drop as many bollocks as we can today"
I would think he's actually losing patience with a few of these players by now.... so you might start to see changes
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Post by tim_rigby Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:39 am

The point is breeze and Josh when does Megson have to take responsibility for the tactics and the players he has brought to the club or do you not think he should ever have to carry the can? Just give us a date, next year 2011, 2020?

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Post by josh8 Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:00 pm

I think he does take responsibility for tactics and such..... but these are not why we're losing games at the moment...... individual errors are....!
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Post by chrislanz Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:29 pm

The funny thing is, Cahill still got picked for the england squad???...

.......

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Post by tim_rigby Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:35 pm

No he talks about personnel after every failure this one failed that one did not do what I told them. They are in the main his signings the three main ones he inherited are Jussi one of the best keepers in the division, KD respected as one of the best target men and Rikki who Megsons raves about, the rest are his players. If they don't play as they are told to that is his fault. I accept he has not been given a lot of money and that he has made some good signings, that makes it even more infuriating that he cannot get the players to play well. Big Sam had Henrik Pedersen at left back for effectively over a season and we kept far more clean sheets, Megson simply does not know how to set a team up, hence trying to get so many players back, it is all he knows. A defense with Jussi and Cahill in it simply should not be conceding so many goals, other managers create good defenses with much worse players, i.e. Stoke.

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Post by mangler Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:47 pm

Megson is always ultimately responsible, however he can't carry the can for errors made within a particular game by each player. His responsibilty is for results... and until we ran into some of the tougher teams like Utd, Chelsea and Villa (don't forget we got 4 decent points from Everton & Spurs in there too) our results were on the up.
Our performances have, until the Villa game, been improved and the challenge now is for Megson to develop the fine balancve between being potent when going forward (we seem to make plenty of chances) and being solid at the back.
He has given Knight and Cahill a decent run in the team to develop a steady partnership... sadly this hasn't yet worked. Hopefully he is mulling over dropping Knight for AOB for the Rovers game. The same philosophy has been used in giving Ricketts an extended run in the team in spite of a handful of errors and slack defensive performances. Again, I would hope to see Steinsson given the start against Rovers.

However... Megson may be looking at our poor defending being caused from being more attacking... the danger being that the likes of Lee, Gardner and to a lesser extent Klasnic and M Davies falling down the pecking order with someone like McCann coming back in.

If that happens then we're making steps backward, and I pray it's not in Megson's mind.

Villa was a bad game, but I fully expect us to bounce back well against Blackburn... we're long overdue a good win against them!
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Post by wakeywhite Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:35 pm

Blackburn is pretty much a must win game.
If we don't get three points we follow it up with a trip to Fulham - Tim will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the law that we have to lose there - then a trip to Wolves which potentially becomes a massive game for Megson's job security.

The irony is that there have been some better signs recently, but Megson could well be in more danger of the sack in 3 or 4 weeks tha he ever has been.
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Post by tim_rigby Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:42 pm

No Wakey fair point about Fulham, although more common law than statutory!
It is also pretty much set in stone that we lose at home to Blackburn, we have not had many successes against them other than at Ewood. Ah and then Wolves, I agree it could be a big game for Megson, I don't see more than two points from the other two games, probably only one, so three points from wolves will be a necessity, I think Megson's goose is finally cooked or will be shortly, I just hope someone throws a wet dishcloth over him and chucks him in the trash before he sets the whole kitchen on fire.

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Post by josh8 Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:28 pm

I don't think Megson is under any pressure at all from the board or Eddie Davies...... only the fans......

they won't sack him because he is actually doing a good job ...!
moan all you like.... but his cv is sky high at the moment.... you only have to look at Ipwich, Charlton, Newcastle and the championship and lower are full of teams who didn't appoint the right manager after their longstanding 'successful' man at the helm....!
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Post by tim_rigby Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:30 pm

Please tell me Josh where is the progress or are you happy with fighting relegation every year. The fact is if you are there or there abouts every year as we will be under Megson sooner or later you luck will run out and you will be relegated, you can't keep dodging the bullet. We need to move forward and tell one scrap of evidence that says we are doing that, how is he doing a good job when we have kept 3 clean sheets in 37 games. You were one of the ones saying give him until after the summer, yet another time limit you set, they always seem to move forward to give him more time, well you stated give him the summer see who he brings in and the improvement well what exactly is the improvement.

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Post by bigsamsarmyusa Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:52 pm

Tim, the fact is that Eddie and Phil are content with finishing 17th and that is why Megson won't get sacked; though obviously that could change if/when we drop into the bottom three.
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Post by tim_rigby Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:18 am

I think the problem is if you aim for 17th there is a very real chance of sliding below that, one bad decision, one piece of bad luck and you go from 17th to 18th and it is game over. I see no real progress under Megson to move from finishing around 16th, 17th or 18th, our defense is a shambles and generally teams that cannot keep clean sheets get relegated. I just hope someone sees the light.

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Post by breezeblock Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:53 am

The 'problem' is that whilst Megson is always three defeats from us being stuck in the bottom three he is always three wins away from us being safely in mid-table and while that scenario continues to play out we are technically stable (in the eyes of ED, Gartside, etc.).

We would need to actually lose those three games and be stuck down with Portsmouth for this situation to require any degree of panic.
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Post by Haydock Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:17 am

It's interesting to note that Gartside is trying to protect Wanderers by guaranteeing survival in a two-tier Premier League (including Rangers and Celtic in the upper tier). He won't win of course and we don't have the resources to survive without a huge injection of money.

When they announced the financial results (a loss of over £13M) the claim was that we were one of only a few clubs to have increased attendance last season over the previous season. I can promise Mr Gartside now that the same won't be achieved this season - under Gary Megson I guess we're going to be way down in gate receipts.

The ONLY way this club can survive is to stay in the Premiership. Relegation would bring insurmountable financial ruin! Of course Mr Gartside only has his OWN interests at heart. If he, and Mr Davies, really wanted to see our club regain some of its former glory they'd be offering the club for sale now - or even giving it away!

Somehow I feel that just won't happen.

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Post by josh8 Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:25 pm

but they are offering it for sale........infact in the near 38yrs I've been going to the waderers the door's have always been open for anyone to inject their cash.... (which in some cases have been to the detrement of the club) I actually think gartside should be looking after our interest and if that means a two tier premier league to keep us up there.....then so be it....!
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